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HOROWITZ: I hope you’ve since corrected your ways, Stephen. HOROWITZ: Well, being pressed down is a kind of dominant signal. It’s our impulse. Their bodies do not deceive, even if they sometimes cajole or trick us. In this case, it’s almost definitely not a sign of happiness. To find out more, check out the podcast from which this hour was drawn: “ Forget Everything You Know About Your Dog.” But is the breed therefore obviously always more aggressive? DUBNER: God, I want to hear that podcast so bad. So, does this mean that on some level, dogs are kind of more — I guess the phrase these days is “lifelong learners” — than many or most humans are? And it was terrific for the shelters. To find out more, check out the podcast from which this hour was drawn: “Forget Everything You Know About Your Dog.”. Do you follow your advice? Psychologists want to look at behavior. The dog may in fact be a comfort. So, I had to wait until I went home that evening. In this latest installment of the Freakonomics Radio Book Club, we discuss Inside of a Dog with the cognitive scientist (and dog devotee) Alexandra Horowitz. And then, they can’t ever get rid of that handle. In 1959, Belyaev began a project that has greatly informed our best guesses as to what we believe the earliest steps of domestication were. As beloved and familiar as they are, we rarely stop to consider life from the dog’s point of view. “Hey, take care of these people.” Do you think that’s true? 10/21/20: 57:37: 435: Why Are Cities (Still) So Expensive? But I was very interested in how you get answers about what animals who can’t give verbal responses are thinking. Psychologist and author Stanley Coren says that when he looked at a random sample of pictures showing people hugging dogs, most of the dogs … Sudhir takes us inside Facebook, as he and his former colleagues recall... Also: what is the most significant choice you will ever make? HOROWITZ: I think that would be a failure as a breed. DUBNER: So, does that mean they smell, “better than us,” like, 60 to one? All sorts of things have happened that have left sort of smell traces. Since Medicare reimbursement... Freakonomics ® is a registered service mark of Freakonomics, LLC. They walk with us, things like that. You’re going to like this one, I promise. 2), Do Good Deeds Invite More Bad Ones? So, that’s one thing. Mine might be a little bit unusual in that there’s not a lab that’s constantly staffed. So, there was this interesting convergence of thinking. You know, in all animals, including the human animal, there’s something — position that you gain by being larger or louder. How do you feel about this new army of dog owners? HOROWITZ: It’s this peptide hormone, yeah, that’s involved in feelings of affection and attachment. And I would be interested in that for sure. The kisses feel affectionate to me, but are they gestures of affection to the dog? But yeah, it’s reasonable to hypothesize but not conclude that they’re doing that behavior because they’re small dogs, right? Imagine smelling every minute visual detail. But otherwise, we’re forcing the dog. I also noted their postures, their proximity to one another, and which way they were looking at every moment. DUBNER: Here’s a small question with a perhaps gigantic answer. Today we’ve been getting inside of a dog with Alexandra Horowitz, a cognitive scientist at Barnard College whose first book is called Inside of a Dog. DUBNER: So, is there one or a handful of things that you, as a dog lover and dog scientist, would most like to know about dogs, but because dogs can’t speak, you don’t yet know? HOROWITZ: I’m writing a book on early dog development, which is tentatively titled Year of the Puppy. Now the good news: as a result of this functional use of mouth licking — “kisses” to you and me — the behavior has become a ritualized greeting. Greg Norman & Mark Broadie: Why Golf Beats an Orgasm and Why Data Beats Everything (People I (Mostly) Admire Ep. So, we intentionally include the people in our studies. M.S., Ph.D., Cognitive … Would she be playful if her human didn’t play with her a lot? And we run the dog through a little problem-solving test. Finnegan, for instance, if he needs to go out or wants to play, he’ll come to my office door and just hang out there. The book takes the form of six chapters. 48), Amaryllis Fox: “What Does This New Version of Mutually Assured Destruction Look Like?” (People I (Mostly) Admire, Ep. DUBNER: So, some dog breeds are thought to be naturally aggressive — pit bulls and Rottweilers and Dobermans. The Garbage Can Model of Decision Making (SBTI Ep. What is it about them?” And they think, “Well, maybe humans were going somewhere.”. So, if you have a certain kind of play you like to do together, then you will slowly find yourself doing that type of play all the time. And we also never get news reports of three children drowned because the dog standing on the bank failed to see that they had to be saved. Amaryllis... Kidney failure is such a catastrophic (and expensive) disease that Medicare covers treatment for anyone, regardless of age. HOROWITZ: The only kind of research out there is really ones that look at, for instance, levels of oxytocin production. You can’t tell. . All rights reserved. In each chapter, the authors analyze a different social issue from an economic perspective. That helps doing that. HOROWITZ: It’s not really like me to go back and rub their noses in it. That’s part of what dogs constitutionally are. The result will be a dog who becomes extra-sensitive and possibly fearful, but not one who understands what you mean to impart. What is to us just a single stem actually holds a record of who held it, and when. Go look at a dog. That might be the experience of a rose to a dog. Or should we conclude that dachshunds are aggressive because they’re small and they just need to kind of make themselves known? DUBNER: When you write about why dogs fit so well with humans, you also make the point that physiologically, they’re not that unlike us. And the thought was that you don’t really need research in this field. HOROWITZ: It’s totally right to think of the marking behavior, just peeing a little bit on lots of different things, as leaving little flags, it’s sort of like little calling cards that say, “Me, me, me!” But it’s not territory, right? And I think that’s totally charming, very delightful. DUBNER: And you write, “Research found that of all breeds, dachshunds were the most aggressive to both their own owners and to strangers.” Little wiener dachshunds were the most aggressive? You can pick up the dachshund, stash them in your tote bag, and then, they’re not aggressive anymore. By standard intelligence tests, the dogs have failed at the puzzle. But to give some credit to your dog, I do think that what happens when barometric pressure changes — and that happens well before the storm is about to come — is that, if the pressure lowers, then smells that are in the ground can kind of come into the air. What counts as aggressive behavior is really changed according to context. At this point, she thought she might like to become that kind of writer. 2), Do Good Deeds Invite More Bad Ones? I’ve gotten inside of the dog, and have glimpsed the dog’s point of view. And they found that in terms of owner-reported aggressive acts — things like barking, biting, snarling, growling — dachshunds showed far more than the other breeds. DUBNER: Can I tell you, I once tried to sign up to bring my dog into your lab for an experiment and the paperwork required some information that I didn’t have handy. Here, again, is Alexandra Horowitz reading from Inside of a Dog. DUBNER: All of us are familiar with the study of cognition of nonhuman animals, especially different kinds of monkeys, chimpanzees, gorillas, and so on. And certainly, a rain jacket won’t prevent that feeling. I’m not a big advocate of just training for training’s sake. And then if you go around looking at dachshunds and thinking, are you an aggressive little dog? With dogs, it’s quite normal that a dog will sit there as you talk to them and look at you with their head cocked. And you almost can’t talk about the owned dog in separation from the person. This episode was produced by Brent Katz. Each week, Freakonomics Radio tells you things you always thought you knew (but didn’t) and things you never thought you wanted to know (but do) — from the economics of sleep to how to become great at just about anything. I grew up with dogs. DUBNER: It’d be like one of those stretch S.U.V. operative working to prevent terrorism. DUBNER: If I put my dog in a tuxedo, let’s say, and she looks like she’s smiling in the tuxedo, is she smiling? So, I think we’ve kind of got the better deal. And so, you do get this kind of adulterated subject at some level. HOROWITZ: Yeah, I think it’s absolutely possible. Alexandra Horowitz has been teaching at Barnard since 2004. But I do think the dog’s amazing social cognitive skills, their ability to kind of solve puzzles using others, thinking about others’ minds, is one of the things that makes them extraordinary and something we didn’t expect to see except for in other primates. It’s not an actual smile. I mean, hopefully we know something about them because they’re living in our house and they’re in my bed right now, you know? And then, the researchers look at, you know, are there differences that we can see by breeds, by sex, by age, etc.? And I think anthropomorphisms actually have a use insofar as they get us interested in looking at dogs, and thinking about them as creatures who have experiences. In this latest installment of the Freakonomics Radio Book Club, we discuss Inside of a Dog with the cognitive scientist (and dog devotee) Alexandra Horowitz. I think it was a vaccination record, like it needed a number or something. The large dogs moderate their behaviors to be more suited to the small dog. And I would think that the raincoat probably reproduces a little bit of that feeling. DUBNER: So, can you quickly describe, I guess, the status of dog research now versus 20 or 30 years ago? So, those fields plus computer science — with their interest in artificial intelligence — and anthropology, all kind of converge in this one interdisciplinary field, which wants to use different methods and approaches to tackle the questions of mind. You can do the same. Hard numbers aren’t easy to come by, but it’s estimated there are between 77 and 90 million dogs in the U.S., with roughly 40 to 50 percent of households having at least one. And now, there are dozens of dedicated dog cognition labs. Freakonomics Radio podcast on demand - Discover the hidden side of everything with Stephen J. Dubner, co-author of the Freakonomics books. Mix thoroughly and wait, oh, a few thousand years. Like, they’re a different person. Well, first of all, you just weren’t that perceptive, probably, Stephen. Instead of observing dogs and extrapolating backward, he examined another social canid species and propagated them forward. In this latest installment of the Freakonomics Radio Book Club, we discuss Inside of a Dog with the cognitive scientist (and dog devotee) Alexandra Horowitz. It turns out we make a lot of assumptions about dogs that are half-true at best. So, I think it’s how we’ve used dogs that’s led to their being tainted as aggressive. I certainly treat them as though there’s a “who” there. HOROWITZ: It’s a great question because we certainly have two things that change our pool of dogs from sort of dogs generally. It doesn’t end with learning to sit or lie down or roll over. That’s not a trick that you should pull out and feel satisfaction for. The sense of smell is to a dog as blank is to a human. But my interpretation was that, because she’s so brilliant, she learned that ambulances are transporting sick people and that she’s empathizing, calling ahead to the hospital. Amaryllis... Kidney failure is such a catastrophic (and expensive) disease that Medicare covers treatment for anyone, regardless of age. And that’s what it’s for. I feel like such a failure as a dog owner but I guess, again, this goes to the point of how representative the dogs, but more of the dog owners, are. #ListenNow Jeff Immelt, Sean Underwood, 2001 discussed on Freakonomics Radio on @Audioburst Jeff Immelt Sean Underwood 2001 2017 Alaska Jack Welch Giles Snyder National Endowment For The Arts Iraq Tegan Tegan 16 Underwood Erbil General Electric … We are important to dogs. I mean, there are more stray dogs than owned dogs in the world. But just dogs being dogs and really track what they know by smell. “Dog stands idly by on riverbank while people are drowned.”. And it’s scary because the next move of that photo could be the dog biting the face of the child and not meaning to be aggressive, but just trying to get out of this uncomfortable position. HOROWITZ: And there are a lot of things, absolutely, just about them that appeal to us. In all my play studies, small dogs are perfectly good at playing with giant dogs and vice versa. . Aggression is more complicated than that. A wolfcentric trainer may call the humans the pack leaders responsible for discipline and forcing submission by others. That stops now. Good behavior gets it all. I don’t think that’s the right question, really. And you know, the pit bull is the current bête noire. In other words, it no longer serves only the function of asking for food; now it is used to say hello. They’re so delighted that you’re back. And, until I read your book — or reread your book for this conversation — I hadn’t really thought about what effect she’s had on me overall, especially in my work life. DUBNER: So, should we conclude that it’s good that dachshunds aren’t much bigger, in which case they could do damage? I saw the head-jockeying, open-mouth volleys that blurred into unrecognizability in real time. National Public Radio’s Freakonomics podcast interviewed former White House economic adviser Gary Cohn and repeated the false claim that President Donald Trump referred to neo-Nazis in Charlottesville, Virginia, as “very fine people.”. I mean, it would be more interesting to study dogs who don’t have a person dragging them by the leash and don’t restrict where they can go. And dogs wound up being a good model for looking at behavior and making inferences to mind. But that’s not what the scene is for the dog every time the dog comes outside, right? 'Freakonomics' By Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner. That stops now. These “kisses” are licks: slobbery licks to the face; focused, exhaustive licking of the hand; solemn tongue-polishing of a limb. Go on, look — maybe at one lying near you right now, curled around his folded legs on a dog bed, or sprawled on his side on the tile floor, paws flitting through the pasture of a dream. And in fact, as we’ve bred dogs, we’ve made them even more recognizable with flatter faces, sort of more primate-like. That stops now. Teaching your dog “sit” is not about your dog sitting. These are furry animals that have a face which was somewhat recognizable, right? HOROWITZ: Well, right when I started looking at dog mind, there were other people around the world who also started looking at dog mind. Freakonomics Radio on Apple Podcasts. One of the sound-making objects on the tape is my dog, and the other — well, it’s easily recognizable. Does it suggest that we should all on that level strive to be a little bit more doglike? Did it happen in you first? If your dog dresses themselves in a raincoat before they go out into the rain, which they’ve smelled, then you should absolutely let your dog wear that raincoat. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Dubner Productions. The other aspect is just the real interest in imagining a point of view which is not visually-based. Our staff also includes Alison Craiglow, Greg Rippin, Mary Diduch, Corinne Wallace, Zack Lapinski, Daphne Chen, and Matt Hickey. In this latest installment of the Freakonomics Radio Book Club, we discuss Inside of a Dog with the cognitive scientist (and dog devotee) Alexandra Horowitz. I kind of like that there’s a mystery there, that it’s not just automatically what I assume it looks like. You can really just talk about you’re playful together in this dyad. HOROWITZ: I think it’s probably wrong-headed for me to try to translate it in terms of, “They smell 100 times better than we do.” But we do know in some cases they can smell many, many more minute particles of an odorant than we can. And then, suddenly, it’s an aggressive dog that has to be returned to the shelter or the breeder. You’ll need wolves, humans, a little interaction, mutual tolerance. No, those dogs were trained to do that behavior, wouldn’t naturally have done that behavior, and there was nothing about the breed which is different. HOROWITZ: I mean, as I say, we readily make attributions to our dogs. We definitely learn a lot about other’s minds in social play. So, a dog who comes to me if I’m crying isn’t necessarily doing the same type of thing that a person is if they come to me when I’m crying as a comfort. DUBNER: And do you think you will be writing about dogs when you’re 80? DUBNER: Or, as you write, people actually believe those stories 100 percent, when, in fact, there might be a lot of other factors going on in that hero-seeming situation. Our intern is Emma Tyrrell. You know, who cares if your dog can sit on command? It’s hard to not see a “smiling” dog as a happy dog. More recently, she hosted The Business of Drugs on Netflix. For more information on the people and ideas in the episode, see the links at the bottom of this post. At this speed I could see the mutual nods that preceded a chase. The end point is a relationship. What’s Alexandra Horowitz think of that explanation? And you’ll notice that very few dogs hug each other, that’s not a greeting that they do. And so, that seems absolutely health-giving on a daily basis and would kind of put you in a better place, just as being in a great relationship with a person might put you in that place. And those experimenters, I think, realized it after the fact — that, “Oh, well, maybe the dog wasn’t responding because the person didn’t smell like they were stressed or were having a heart attack. Licking around the mouth seems to be the cue that stimulates her to vomit up some nicely partially digested meat. DUBNER: Because you’re saying pressing down is a submission signal, yes? And she just didn’t, didn’t, didn’t, didn’t want to go. But what do they think of themselves? And it’s also confirmation bias where we remember the cases of a pit bull who attacked a woman in the face or killed a child or another dog. . When you decide to buy or adopt a dog, you already have an idea of where they’re going to fit in your family. Instead, the dog’s body seems to map straight to his internal state, their joy when you return home, or their concern, plotted by the lift of an eyebrow.” So, considering this ingenuousness and the fact that dogs don’t speak and if you can’t speak, you can’t tell a lie — what does this say about dogs’ honesty or decency? Animals have come by. In this latest installment of the Freakonomics Radio Book Club, we discuss Inside of a Dog with the cognitive scientist (and dog devotee) Alexandra Horowitz. HOROWITZ: First of all, I just love imagining you like hiding with your dog. If you have a dog in the room with you, what you see in that great, furry pile of dogness is about to change. HOROWITZ: No, breeds are not naturally aggressive, period. What’s going on there? 579 episodes. HOROWITZ: So, dogs don’t have muscular control of their lips. If I’ve ever met a person who did that I’d like, capture that person and stay with them forever, because it’s a rare trait indeed. Here’s one brief passage that we asked her to read — page 7 of the paperback if you want to follow along. The fold of a leaf has a smell; so does a dew-drop on a thorn. DUBNER: You write that dogs are intuitive anthropologists, that they pay attention to us and continue to do so even after the novelty wears off — unlike many humans, you point out, who kind of stop paying attention to all but the biggest changes or the noisiest signals. It tells me a little bit more about you than it does about the dog, frankly. We worry about what’s going to happen to these dogs when the people are going back to work. There is, of course, an asterisk on this. DUBNER: I can’t. And it’s a battery of questions that owners, that dog people answer about their charges. How disappointed Pump must be that not a single time have I regurgitated half-eaten rabbit flesh for her. . . I mean, how fantastic that they don’t hold a grudge against you when you’ve left them? So, spend a little time girding yourself for the fact that if you’re doing it right, your life is going to change. The authors argue that humans usually make decisions based on the incentives for their actions. Does aggressive mean that they bark at things that arouse them, that stimulate them? It almost seemed like a cheat. It’s a clever strategy to turn to us after all. Alexandra Horowitz runs the Dog Cognition Lab at Barnard College in New York, which is part of Columbia University. HOROWITZ: All the time. And that’s how the dog-human gang coheres into a family. I think it’s maybe a compensatory element. Maybe the weather has changed. I think that she’s kind of howling with the pack, essentially. HOROWITZ: Well, it’s easy to get a dog. HOROWITZ: Getting back to her ambulance roots, yes. After forty years, three-quarters of the population of foxes were of a class the researchers called “domesticated elite”: not just accepting contact with people, but drawn to it. It’s moist. More recently, she hosted The Business of Drugs on Netflix. All contents © 2021 Freakonomics, LLC. The punishment can be a yell, forcing the dog down, a sharp word or jerk of the collar. So, how well do you know your dog? NPR coverage of Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything by Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner. This is such a cute puppy.”. But why dogs? Dogs and wolves muzzle-lick simply to welcome another dog back home, and to get an olfactory report of where the home-comer has been or what he has done. Are they? DUBNER: And how representative do you think the dogs that you get in New York City are? 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