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New York. So what does “sex” refer to? And you can see the same thing in Obamacare, where basically he had four justices who wanted to strike down Obamacare, and Roberts decided to save it by rewriting it, declaring the mandate a tax, changing the — we have — we’ve changed the Medicaid provisions in Obama’s here because of John Roberts’ say so. And there are a lot of people who love her. picks and I get to watch, or listen. And so it is a bit of a problem for the idea of the American republic if policy is increasingly negotiated between the executive branch and the courts. The administration had failed to provide a reasoned explanation for its decision. Tell us what you think at argument@nytimes.com. And the problem is it’s a very popular program. That was their entire argument. She’s the favorite of young people in polling. I have four small children, three girls and a boy, and I live in New Haven with my wife. workplace rights and about the DREAM Act, or D.A.C.A. That’s literally what the ruling comes down to. Joe Biden has vowed to pick a woman as his running mate. Frank Bruni joins in the argument… And I think that’s because all of those women under consideration understand that, because of Joe Biden’s age, whoever is his vice president might be the Democratic nominee in four years rather than eight years, might quickly become the de facto leader of the party. There’s a lot of talk about Kamala Harris, Val Demings, and Susan Rice as frontrunners. Ross, I want to ask you this question, but then I want to get Jesse’s response to it too. You two essentially agree that the Court is seizing powers or a kind of role that it hasn’t always done in the past. A lot of people were surprised given the Court’s conservative majority, Jesse. There’s about 650,000-700,000 of them. [CHUCKLES], Well, if you’re reading Twitter, it’s all apoplexy all the time. The fact that we’re having this argument at all — we’re having an argument about a portion of the Civil Rights Act that was itself passed as part of a long legislative battle. And I think you’re totally wrong— [FRANK LAUGHS] — about — about the conservative legal movement. He didn’t win the primary obviously, but I think he came through it better liked by just about everybody than Harris did. I covered Congress, the White House and several political campaigns; I also spent five years in the role of chief restaurant critic. They can— technically, the Trump administration can go back and come up with a better explanation. But it’s just — it’s another sign of a society that is in some— that is sort of ruled by its lawyers in a way that has always— again, I take the Tocqueville point. ‘Vandalism With a Purpose’ and the Future of the G.O.P. This is a big story that encompasses all kinds of other debates — sometimes debates where liberals are more on the losing side — where the Supreme Court has basically increased its powers dramatically as Congress has ceased legislating and has sort of deferred to the Supreme Court, which you saw in this case. Although Kama— right. But obviously, it continues with rulings on abortion, rulings on same sex marriage, all the way down to the present day. I think he’s going to pick Kamala. In fact, don’t get him started about Mitch McConnell stealing a Supreme Court seat from Barack Obama. And as he pointed out, obviously you cannot talk about sexual orientation or gender identity without talking about sex. She and her husband are an economically humble couple. So all right. Why isn’t this evolution of the Court appropriate for this moment in time when Congress is, as I said, a kind of void? So the question here was, does sex refer to sexual orientation and gender identity? They try to thread the needle and say, well, we’re not shutting it down. She’s Asian-American — Thai-American, to be specific. And so in that sense, given that pattern, it’s not particularly surprising that Neil Gorsuch came up with a totally absurd texturalist explanation for why the word “sex” actually means “sexual orientation.” It’s part of a larger pattern, and one that extends, I should say, beyond culture war cases. It goes against the Democratic Party’s brand. So we’ll leave it there. And I’m hoping that he picks her for both electoral reasons and substantive governing reasons. Explain that decision for our listeners. But I do think that there are arguments, certainly that when systems decay power has to be exercised. We’re saying that President Obama didn’t have the authority to issue this order in the first place — he exceeded his legal authority. And Warren gives them something to be excited about. And I think that if you read his decision, he sounds like a legislator making a sort of argument for why changing conditions have changed the need for this law. And I would say the separation of powers itself is really— it is an ongoing project. I think it still leaves him with an enormous range of choices, as you can see if you look at the list. [LAUGHTER] So what—. So what do they do? And I see a sort of broken Congress. We basically have a void there. So this is something — the Court’s centrality to our policy debates has always been there and it’s always been debated. Then, editorial board member Jesse Wegman joins Ross and Frank for a Supreme Court battle: has SCOTUS usurped Congress when it comes to legislating America’s culture wars? Can you talk about that? [THEME MUSIC] The Argument is a production of The New York Times opinion section. And so it’s going to be important to get young people excited and enthused. Should We Put the Filibuster Out of Its Misery? And it couldn’t be thought of in any other way. Jesse, did that reasoning surprise you? One headline stated "College is a ludicrous waste of money." And I think — and I think that there is no better way to work out a contested issue. This court has had a majority of Republican-appointed justices for about a half a century now. And where it needs to be exercised, the institutions capable of exercising it will do so no matter what people wringing their hands about constitutional niceties may think. Who’s your pick and why? And I think some of that is an artifact of his position as chief. And that’s a political system; it’s just not the one that we’re taught about in civics class, if there are civics classes anymore. There is something to me un-ideal and potentially not a great idea about having a Democratic ticket, in particular, of two people in their 70s. I’ve written books about Harvard, the G.O.P., American Christianity and Pope Francis, and decadence. That’s the failure. I think the conservative reaction to this decision was less apoplexy and more weary resignation. I’m Ross Douthat. But the bottom line is where the conservative legal movement has failed is in its quest to have a Supreme Court that leaves culture war battles to legislatures, to states, to Congress. She’s the favorite of young Black people in polling. But it’s still a depressing place for our experiment to end up. In the following essay from the New York Times, Frank Bruni makes an argument concerning invasive plants and animals.Let’s see if we can figure out what the claim is and what evidence Bruni uses to support the claim. And there just isn’t that equivalent today. That’s our show this week. Well, these are issues obviously that Americans care deeply about. He will be comfortable campaigning against a ticket that includes Elizabeth Warren. Gorsuch famously adheres to an interpretive approach known as textualism, and that means, when you’re reading a statute, the plain words of the statute control. I wrote a piece during the general election saying, why not Cory Booker, right? It’s great to have you here. I think that’s an overstatement in the extreme. Not as much as I think most people were. Potato Head, Dr. Seuss or … The plaintiffs sued under Title 7 of the Civil Rights Act, which prohibits discrimination in the workplace on the basis of, among other things, sex. I was against Donald Trump in 2016 for reasons specific to Donald Trump, but in general I think the populist movements in Europe and America have legitimate grievances and I often prefer the populists to the “reasonable” elites. I think that’s fair. I have — I have— I have one-upped myself. It has support, like, in the 80th percentile, somewhere around there. She is an Iraq war veteran, who lost both of her legs during her combat service as a helicopter pilot and speaks of this with such humility and such grace. https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2020/01/26/frank-bruni-all-trumps And that I do think is a very unhealthy thing for democracy. It’s good, obviously, for the Dreamers because they get protected for a couple of more years. And we will let Michelle go get on with the rest of her day. All I know is that Joe Biden needs to win. I think the hard questions around this issue are the ones that Gorsuch didn’t take up, which is, what does it mean when those rights conflict with religious liberty, what does it mean for single sex institutions. You want to talk about relatable with voters? It seems to me that Booker is someone who has — he’s African-American, obviously. And you can see that in the other case we’re talking about here, right, where the reason we don’t have a enduring settlement on DACA is that Congress didn’t come up with one; Barack Obama decided to pre-empt Congress, creating a debate about whether his move was constitutional; then Donald Trump elected, tried to undo what Obama did; and then the Court came up with somewhat convoluted reasons to say, not so fast, let’s postpone this through the next election, basically. And again and again, what’s happened— and it happened with Anthony Kennedy, and now it’s happened again with Neil Gorsuch — is that the Republican appointees put in a position to rule on contested culture war questions decide to set themselves up as the arbiters of the controversy rather than leaving it to the democratic process to work out. Democratic presidential candidate and former Vice President Joe Biden watches as then-candidates Senator Elizabeth Warren and Senator Kamala Harris shake hands after a Democratic presidential primary debate in 2019. juristocracy and the Supreme Court as arbiter of the “culture war” debates, Justice Neil Gorsuch and the L.G.B.T.Q. “The Argument” Is a production of the New York Times Opinion section. For example, male-on-male sexual harassment is covered under Title 7. And his relationship with Elizabeth Warren — and we’re not going to get into the nickname that he calls her — is a great example of that. [JESSE LAUGHS] But the independent sort of specific theories of interpretation, the animating force, the political force behind the conservative legal movement going back 50 years really now has been the view that unelected judges — justices of the Supreme Court — are taking it upon themselves to effectively rule on and settle what we call culture war issues/social issue debates rather than leave them to the Democratic process. rights, held that a federal civil rights law prohibits employers from firing workers for being gay or transgender. And so each of these candidates has things that make them formidable and things that make them less so, right? Whether it’s Mr. My pick— I think a better one in those regards — is Senator Tammy Duckworth of Illinois. These days people on the right and the left both use “liberal” as an epithet, but that’s basically what I am, though the nightmare of Donald Trump’s presidency has radicalized me and pushed me leftward. There is a general sense among conservatives that the country supports anti-discrimination protections for gays and lesbians. I think that’s absolutely right, but it will be quite something at a certain level if Joe Biden’s running mate is someone who was arguably beaten decisively in the Democratic primary because she was too far to the right on criminal justice. "A dazzlingly erudite synthesis of history, philosophy, anthropology, genetics, sociology, economics, epidemiology, statistics, and more" ( Frank Bruni joins in the argument… decision, Frank on the court’s L.G.B.T.Q. de Tocqueville said this 200 years ago — there’s hardly any political question in the United States that sooner or later does not turn into a judicial question. Because if at the margins, as Michelle said, it made the barest difference and that barest difference was a win/loss difference, well, you’ve got to plan for that. I’ve written three books, including one, in 2006, about the danger of right-wing populism in its religious fundamentalist guise. This is a case that the court will probably take up next term. That’s substantially why a lot of Democratic primary voters picked him. I just think it is a more prudent and a safer way to go. And so I’m wondering if, in deciding for understandable reasons to say he was going to pick a woman, Joe Biden preemptively deprived himself of the guy who would have been the right choice for the political moment we’ve ended up living in right now. There’s nothing in this country that that many people agree about. Special thanks to Brad Fisher, Constanza Gallardo, and James T. Green. Who is the person most likely to help him win the presidency? Well, first, let me just say, Ross, you mentioned that I had perhaps overstated the conservative unhappiness. It would be really exciting for a lot of people. Now, I have enormous respect for her. And I think you can see that in the rumors around his campaign right Now. So we’ll be keeping a close eye on the Supreme Court. I think he’ll pick Kamala too. I’m Italian-American, I’m gay and I write a weekly Times newsletter in which you’ll occasionally encounter my dog, Regan, who has the run of our Manhattan apartment. The liberals on the Court are older on average than the conservatives. He was mayor of Newark, a successful mayor — a city that has weathered the current era of protest a lot better than a lot of other cities. We’ll see you next week. Great. Oh, sorry. I think there’s something to that. She is the favorite of progressives. I look at this from much more of a distance and in way less of a sophisticated and granular way than the two of you. Working off Frank’s last point, that sort of the image of a ticket of two older candidates isn’t ideal for the Democrats, both of you are suggesting candidates who have many virtues but are not African-American. So I’m thinking of this completely and totally in strategic terms. Sure. Biden has already pledged to pick a woman, but he hasn’t gotten more specific. In his op-ed column in The New York Times, Frank Bruni writes about the Supreme Court’s upcoming decision on same-sex marriage and the argument leveled … As the Rome bureau chief, I reported on the Vatican; as a staff writer for The Times’s Sunday magazine, I wrote many celebrity profiles. You mentioned I think accurately that Congress has ceased to legislate. If you have sort of guaranteed civil rights not to be fired or — in hiring for gays and lesbians, what does that mean for Catholic adoption agencies and so on? Politically, I’m grief-stricken over the way President Trump has governed and I’m left of center, but I don’t think that the center is a bad place or “compromise” a dirty word. I think the same thing. And Congress doesn’t want to make difficult choices on culture war issues if the Court is willing to take them off its hands. We don’t have constitutional amendments; no one can imagine passing them. Realistically, that’s not going to happen before the November elections. And first, Jesse, thanks so much for joining us. But of course, that can’t be true, because over the years the Supreme Court has expanded Title 7 to cover all kinds of situations that those original lawmakers wouldn’t have thought of. Ezra Klein and Jessica Anderson join Jane Coaston to debate the Senate’s revered and reviled tactic. But think about one of her big weak spots when she was running for president. And I think she has given more thought to the problems that face this nation and how to solve them than probably anyone we’re going to discuss today. https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/19/frank-bruni-buttigieg-071721 That’s clear. That if voters wanted somebody who was more centrist than Bernie or Warren, that Booker was really the person they should look to, right? I see a sort of broken system in a lot of ways that have turned this Congress into somewhat of a joke when it comes to addressing the nation’s needs and when it comes to reflecting the nation’s needs. ruling; less so the immigration ruling. I guess I just also think though that Congress has sort of trained itself not to want to touch some of these issues. I don’t think they’ll go through all of those hoops. Ross Douthat, Michelle Goldberg and the new co-host Frank Bruni debate whether the president is using journalists as foils, the ways in which his briefings have become a substitute for c… ‎Show The Argument, Ep Fighting Trump's Falsehoods - Apr 8, 2020 I only meant “boring” in the sense of being something that we could see coming a long time ago. But Ross, you think these are defeats in a larger sense. She’s still, in polls, the most popular with Democrats of all the people who are being considered for vice president. He had promised to end it. And so I think rather than just make a case for a Black woman, there’s cases to be made for specific Black women, right? I also think there’s something to be said for a candidate who’s already run for president, so we have some idea of how they perform under that spotlight. I’ve been an Op-Ed columnist since 2009, and I write about politics, religion, pop culture, sociology and the places where they all intersect. For background reading on this episode, visit nytimes.com/theargument. But at the end of the day, she was not able to translate that into the kind of excitement among voters that would validate her choice as his running mate. I think of several things, but right now I’ll just focus on a few. And it very much angered, I would say, for lack of a better term, the White revanchist base that Trump relies on for his electoral success. Frank Bruni. Then, when everyone in America is socially distancing, how far apart is far enough? It feels to me like a real risk to put out a Democratic ticket — a ticket for the party that’s about youth, and optimism, and change — that has a 70-year-old and a 77-year-old on it. Would you have ever predicted that Neil Gorsuch would come up with that interpretation of, quote unquote, textualism? Now let’s look at a longer argument and analyze the evidence. It’s not that there aren’t Republicans on the bench— obviously there are. And do you share his concern about that if so? These are all the kinds of questions that, in a healthy democracy, legislators would address. In the meantime, Jesse, we can’t thank you enough for joining us today. Entitled, “Bigotry, the Bible, and the Lessons of Indiana,” Bruni boldly asserts that “homosexuality and Christianity don’t have to be in conflict in any church anywhere.”. So if you have a Senate that can actually be empowered to pass more laws, then you get more laws passed, and you don’t have the Supreme Court making policy on the side. Now we live in Brooklyn with our son and daughter. Depends on which people you talk to. Ross on the juristocracy and the Supreme Court as arbiter of the “culture war” debates, Michelle on Justice Neil Gorsuch and the L.G.B.T.Q. Bruni questions the purpose of college whether it 's sufficiently assessable or invariably worthwhile. But in polls, Bernie supporters want Warren to be the vice president, as do, like I said, other groups of the progressive base. But you did invoke the fall of Rome. And that opinion, the majority opinion for the Court, was written by not some bleeding heart liberal, but by the rock-ribbed conservative Neil Gorsuch. So in that respect, I see more of an argument for Kamala Harris. And sadly for a show called “The Argument,” what we have here is the unanimity or the consensus. I think in a healthy society that would be— or a healthy democratic society, which we’re supposed to be, that would be the kind of question that requires debate and compromise that a legislature would handle. So she suffered a lot from people who liked her the best but have been traumatized by 2016 — didn’t believe that a woman could beat Donald Trump; wanted the safest possible candidate. In certain instances, I think it’s — [CHUCKLES]. You see something going on here that’s about the Court’s trajectory and role over time that concerns you greatly. Last week, Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar withdrew her name from Joe Biden’s list of possible VP picks and urged the Democratic nominee to choose a woman of color as his running mate. decision, The Debate Over Biden’s V.P. He’s also written a book about abolishing the electoral college. And that’s a fancy administrative language to say that people who were brought to America as children by undocumented immigrant parents, and therefore are not citizens, but came here through no fault of their own and broke the law through no fault of their own were allowed to stay without fear of being immediately deported. Now, Jesse, you mentioned conservative apoplexy— a great phrase. Special thanks to Brad Fisher, Constanza Gallardo, Sara Nics and James T. Green. If you ever run afoul of the K-Hive on Twitter, you will quickly learn that she has a pretty fanatical base of her own. And to be fair, the executive is also stepping into that vacuum. And now, with everything that’s going on, it seems even more urgent. He brings a lot to the table. So let me now just before we wrap up throw out my own sort of wildcard pick, which is not someone he’s actually going to pick because it’s not a woman. Both of you, who will he pick? How do we get away from judges making policy then? I’ve been an Op-Ed columnist at The New York Times since 2017, writing mainly about politics, ideology and gender. Copyright © 2021 Apple Inc. All rights reserved. I remember when Democrats decided that there was no way George W. Bush, a draft dodger, was going to be able to campaign effectively against war hero John Kerry— they found a way. So there you have it. Six justices said that it did. She is a mother of two children under the age of six. Now, once again, as with the L.G.B.T. © 2018-2021 THE NEW YORK TIMES COMPANY; The New York Times encourages the use of RSS feeds for personal use in a news reader or as part of a non-commercial blog, subject to your agreement to our Terms of Service. And so I’m reluctant to think about this choice as sort of four-dimensional chess in terms of what sort of attack ads they will be able to gin up, right? What do you guys think of that? I’m a Catholic and a conservative, in that order, which means that I’m against abortion and critical of the sexual revolution, but I tend to agree with liberals that the Republican Party is too friendly to the rich. And so— and there’s no shortage of really compelling choices. Michelle, let’s start with you. She’s the favorite of a lot of the parts of the Democratic Party that felt most disappointed with how things played out and with Joe Biden getting the nomination — people whose enthusiasm is going to be really, really important in November. Column: Let us all now weep for Donald Trump - Chicago Tribune But all of these women are obviously not interchangeable. But then I really like Kamala Harris. But —. That said, I think it was a good call at the time when he was asked if he would make this pledge and he did. She talks in a compelling way about Elizabeth Warren as a governing pick, is one of the phrases that’s used for that kind of thing. Let me — let me just quickly push back on two things —. Tell us why Michelle is wrong and the perfect candidate is somebody entirely different. It goes against when they’ve had the most success in presidential elections, with candidates like Bill Clinton, with candidates like Barack Obama, who were a lot younger. My comparison to the fall of the Roman Republic, obviously sounded apocalyptic. Fair enough. And I think we’re right to be asking these questions.

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